PMLN/PPP performance

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by godzilla, Sep 20, 2017.

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  1. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    IK is often the most common topic of conversation in forums talking about Pakistani politics, his supporters can't understand why there is any doubt to his alleged superior suitability, and his detractors can't understand why his alleged inexperience/inconsistencies make him an automatic choice.

    In this thread, I'm hoping not to to discuss IK, but the other two main parties.

    Here's a starter I read this morning: https://tribune.com.pk/story/1511129/international-litigation-pakistan-slapped-700m-fine-rpp-case/

    This is astonishing and deeply worrying. In a country suffering a huge deterioration in current balance, foreign reserves and trade balance, a $700mm fine because essentially of corruption on the watch of the PPP and PMLN governments is unforgivable.

    To put it in context, Pakistan is forecast to run an $11bn trade deficit in the next 12 months (https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/exports/forecast), and its current account - similar to your own bank account so to speak - is deteriorating massively due to increased debt, decreased exports and revenue, and investment in projects and infrastructure which are suspected to be sub-economic (https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/current-account/forecast).
     
  2. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani The Don

    Jun 10, 2011
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    Shit

    Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
     
  3. DW44
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    DW44 Youngsta Beauty

    Mar 24, 2017
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    Speaking purely for myself, I don't doubt his party is less corrupt than PPP and PML-N but as someone who has spent the best part of the last six years teaching myself development economics, reading every book and paper I could get my hands on, I don't see corruption as something a third world country with limited resources should even be attempting to fight at this point. More corrupt countries than Pakistan are doing much better than us economically so IK's populist rants about corruption being the root of our problems are meant for public consumption with very little factual basis to them. I don't prefer PTI over the others because, simply put, they're focusing on all the wrong issues and on certain issues I care about, religious extremism for instance, they're an even less palatable option than PML-N and PPP.
     
  4. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    I couldn't disagree more. It sounds like given the substance of your post the tail is wagging the dog - I take the point it is headed with a nominal disclaimer.

    as very very clearly stated in the op I was hoping for this thread not to be about ik, but an objective assessment of the other parties. the well worn 'debate' and agenda weighted slinging match on extremism doesn't have a place in this thread.

    on the substance of performance, I'm struggling to find adjectives to describe how ridiculous the notion that corruption should not even be attempted to be fought. comparison to 'other countries' with their own particular contextual circumstances, using undefined measures of 'doing much better', are obviously, utterly meaningless, irrespective of the irrelevancy of how long anyone has been self teaching themselves anything.

    if you'd like to elucidate on which issues are of a greater priority to the root cause of a lack of investment in infrastructure, education and the ability to afford both, feel free.

    corruption - and ill not mention my qualifications to comment - is the by far and away, in several leagues of importance above any other consideration for a country like Pakistan, which is the seventh most populous country on the planet and which is on the precipice of becoming a failed state, and descending into bankruptcy.

    no matter what the policy on secularism or extremism, it will be irrelevant in the panic and mass structural social upheaval of a failed state, which will make the past couple of decades of extremists attacks look like a walk in the park; not to mention the fact that a western intervention of governance and control will be an inevitability - given the nuclear, geographic and socio-political reach of the nation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
  5. DW44
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    DW44 Youngsta Beauty

    Mar 24, 2017
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    Putting aside my political allegiances (or lack thereoff), I stand by my position that it is a supreme waste of resources for a country as underdeveloped as Pakistan to try and fight a losing battle against corruption. That's not to say that corruption does not cause serious damage to Pakistan but, simply put, the opportunity cost of focusing efforts and resources on fighting corruption is unacceptably high for any developing country scraping the proverbial bottom of the economic barrel.

    What I see here is a lot of obfuscation with terms like context and unique circumstances thrown about, the underlying implication being that Pakistan is somehow exceptional and the basic rules of economics don't apply to it. As important as tailoring your policies for your specific circumstances is, the basics remain the same throughout. South Korea's development policies in the 1970s might seem poles apart from Britain's in the 1700s on the surface but a deeper look into both countries' policies reveals that they ultimately used heavily customized versions of the same basic policies.

    This brings me to my next point which is that Pakistan didn't fail because it got the nuances wrong, it failed because it got the basics wrong. From Bhutto's half assed socialism to Musharraf signing an FTA with China, our failures have not been on account of our inability to tailor our economic policies to our specific needs, it's mostly a result of us using economic policies that we saw fail repeatedly in various countries.

    To put corruption on the same pedestal as policy failure is as ludicrous as blaming a sore throat for the death of someone suffering from Leukemia. Simply put, corruption shouldn't even be on the agenda until we have a per capita GDP north of $15000 or thereabouts in 2010 dollars. India, another country that failed to adapt good policies for their specific needs is doing significantly better than us economically because despite getting the minutiae wrong, they got the basics right. This despite levels of corruption being at the very least comparable to, if not higher than (closer to reality) Pakistan. Pakistan isn't even, to mix phrases, in the same ballpark as, say, the United States or South Korea in terms of levels of corruption when those countries were at a comparable level of development. Books on their economic history aren't exactly rare so it shouldn't be too hard to fact check.

    Pakistan is not quite a failed state though Pakistan's social policies, particularly those concerning the role of religion in society, have played no small part in pushing Pakistan towards that illustrious achievement. That said, it's still primarily failures on the policymaking front that are responsible for Pakistan being where it is. Corruption and extremism simply made a bad situation worse. I would much rather make an informed judgement than join in with the masses mindlessly parroting the words of their populist leaders without knowing what I'm talking about. To say that corruption is what brought Pakistan to this point and not poor economic and social policies is indicative of exactly that kind of thinking.

    Corruption has never stopped a sufficiently determined country with the right policy framework from developing and Pakistan isn't nearly exceptional enough for the rules of economics to change so fundamentally for it.

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  6. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    im afraid we will have to agree to disagree - this it total rubbish. there isn't any specificity whatsoever, rather than wild unsubstantiated claims of causation and correlation. "What I see here is a lot of obfuscation with terms like context and unique circumstances thrown about". really. context is irrelevant?

    why would anyone think these hallowed universal economic policies of inevitable success which apparently don't need to take into account cross border duties, resource availability, debt burden, or current account, because of their 'obfuscating contextual nature' haven't been put into place?

    apparently sub optimal policy is prevalent for - oddly enough - the context of 'the role of religion' when suddenly context becomes magically relevant - rather than because corruption allows for policy makers to benefit personally at the expense of the nation. but that is apparently an outlandishly bizarre obfuscation, as is the 'role of religion' in the other universal application of decontextualised economic policy throughout the rest of the world.
     
  7. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    back to the intent of the thread and some substance:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1518018/dar-misled-nawaz-sharif-economic-issues/



    "Tax collection by the FBR has doubled to Rs3,500 billion in the last four years from Rs1,900 billion in fiscal year 2013. The increase has come on the back of increased tax rates and not necessarily through a widening of the tax net.

    Meanwhile, Zubair encouraged businessmen to pay taxes, saying that many do not pay taxes reasoning that the government is not honest and will misuse the tax receipts. “This is not their [businessmen] prerogative to decide whether the government is honest or not. They must pay the taxes on time,” the governor stressed."

    note lack of tax receipts, confirming Pakistan's status in terms of "classical economics" as amongst the very lowest effective tax rates in the world, due to *drum roll* corruption.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/151857...ted-ayyan-money-laundering-says-asf-official/

    Zardari's aid facilitated Ayyan in money laundering case. And the PMLN government apparently took her off the ECL this year whereupon she fled of course. Video evidence has mysteriously arrived allegedly proving the corruption of the PPP establishment by way of an example of privilege within institutions, as well as the PML establishment by way of this evidence coming out so far after the event.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/151865...ed-nawazs-children-son-laws-london-residence/

    Bailable warrants on the Sharif clan after they refused to turn up to answer the question their father has been asking so often - what have I done? Unsurprisingly, one of the biggest corruption scandals to come to official light in Pakistan.
     
  8. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    latest installment. ishaq dar, the pmln stallwart tasked with holding the pursestrings of the government finances crucial for the survoival of 190 mostly poverty stricken citizens struggling to live, has run away to london under the pretence of a mysterious and coincidental illness which could only be resolved in london on the day of his trial for corruption.

    and yet there is a call for "stability" over corruption.

    how can anyone with any self respect support this behaviour?

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1367236/i...court-issues-bailable-warrants-for-his-arrest
     
  9. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    all falling apart as was so predictable... millions of dollars of corruption in collusion with foreign investment banks refusing to cooperate with an enquiry:

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1554333/1-senate-panel-threatens-foreign-banks-stern-action/

    and if people like me could predict this with huge certainty, there is no way these crooks didnt know if was on the cards:

    "ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s macroeconomic conditions have significantly worsened in the past one year and heavy reliance on short-term foreign commercial loans can create repayment issues for Islamabad, warned the World Bank on Thursday in a demeaning report."

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/155434...oeconomics-conditions-significantly-worsened/
     
  10. Omar
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    Omar Cricistan Moderator

    Jan 27, 2010
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    This was bound to happen the way these 2 parties that kept taking turns over the last couple of decades.

    The way they kept begging for funds for investment and kept building up debt all this time was going to come and bite them in the back.
     
  11. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    but but but but its more important to have continuity and corruption is a low priority to stamp out..
     
  12. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    accelerating towards bankruptcy and a failed state - as was widely predicted several years ago: unless there is some kind of intervention which at this point will unfortunately have to end up being tied to a loss of sovereignty an foreign involvement, the risks for total collapse are growing by the day:

    "ISLAMABAD:

    In a shocking development, the federal government has added another Rs1 trillion to its growing debt pile in just two months, which swelled at an alarming rate of Rs16.4 billion a day, indicating that the finance ministry cannot ensure fiscal discipline any more.


    The federal government’s debt has increased to Rs21.8 trillion till the end of August 2017, which was Rs1.003 trillion higher than the level witnessed in June 2017, according to the State Bank of Pakistan (SBP). The federal government’s debt of Rs21.8 trillion is exclusive of its liabilities."

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1556260/2-govt-adds-rs1-trillion-debt-pile-60-days/
     
  13. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    I cant stop watching the news these days its more gripping and exciting than any drama series ive seen - every day theres another bombshell of news - anyone else fixated by the whole thing. theres so much going on, its hard to keep track.

    saw this as probably the least impactful but most easily agreed by all as to another corrupt incompetence by the ruling pmln:

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1379563/another-arab-party-in-sindh-on-illegal-hunting-trip-official


    1) Sharifs running to Saudi of all places? Why???

    2) Hudayba possibly back one the menu?

    3) Model town causing the eminently intolerable TUQ sticking his eyes out and talking loud and overly dramatically thankfully about something genuinely important this time, and yet another APC and another in the long train of threats against the government.

    4) Musharraf lambasting that limp pathetic presence of bilawal wonderfully.

    5) Saad Rafiq continuing his life long habits of licking his self inflicted wounds.

    6) Dar's abracadabra disappearing act

    7) The army, the Indians and some bald spy who seems to have more rights than the civilians he helped slaughter.

    8) Rana Sanaullah's magnificent moustache vs Pir saab who? where did you come from?

    9) A rehash of the hatchet job of Benzairs death, the cover ups by Zardari and reman Malik, and possible culpability of Musharaf, the UN report blaming everyone except Khosa

    10) Gulalai is like a bad smell, and doesnt seem to be going away not sure why she hasnt been either sues for slander or has come out with proof of her allegations. Amongst the most damaging moves to the benefit of society whether you are a pmln/ppp supporter or a pti supporter, or a nobody - when the battle lines have been drawn and a resolution is almost in sight after decades of impropriety, why be so abjectly selfish as to distract the public now?

    11) IK claiming more unassailable facts and details to add the files of unassailable facts and details that were assailed comfortably in the courts.

    12) corruption on the metro project, in medical schools, corruption on corruption - but far more important is DEMOCRACY

    thats just off the top of my head. Theres more plot lines than GOT.
     
  14. iAd
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    iAd Sultan of Swing

    Nov 9, 2012
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    corruption and terrible policy are both linked. terrible policy is created (in pakistan atleast) to do corruption. The destruction of PIA and Pakistan Steel Mills is due to implementing terrible policy. Now the state is losing billions and private companies are benefiting. With the owners being friends of policymakers or policymakers themselves. The current PM of Pak owns Airblue. Every loss for PIA is a gain for him.
     
  15. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    pretty funny Gulalai wasnt allowed on stage at a JUI conference whilst she was skulking around for attention and support for her ridiculous party.

    Ganja sharif heads to Saudi to join his brother and saad Rafiq who is probably there to ensure both brothers shoes are as shiny as his own Tind.

    TUQ plays an expectedly lame card in his lame APC which confirms how far out from the realms of reality is his opinion of himself. who knows whether his commitments abroad which last time seemed to be more important than model town, will again call him away to disappear into his better representative irrelevancy. that said, he has a got a bunch of the parties together, so theres still a chance fate might favour him despite himself.

    Pir big beard noone has ever heard of him has had his ominous deadline expire today too - result??? erm so far a big tumbleweed...
     
  16. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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  17. Omar
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    Omar Cricistan Moderator

    Jan 27, 2010
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    Beggars can't be choosers.

    If they have some shame or ghairat as I would say then stand up and stop taking the aid money and give them a fitting response.
     
  18. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    its clear they dont. there wont be any justice until the people get to see exactly what these people have done, and have them pay for their crimes and treason.
     
  19. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    so its all very quirt from the crooks who support the pmln.

    can any of them comment on this? its been telegraphed for years. pakistan is standing on the edge of a precipice which bxhuittos and sharifs have led us to:

     
  20. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
    12,133
    All these looser are sitting on zenith of beghairaty, but what puzzles me is their supports. Are they blind deaf and dumb and cant see how corrupt and crook these thugs are? Are their supporters really that stupid that they cant see what these guys are up to? Nawaz insults SC, Judges and CJ right, left and center all time but no, their supporter are so innocent and naive that they wouldn't see it - downright pathetic attitude of our "Awam".
     
  21. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    they dont cease to disappoint, and yet still have support:

    1) refusing to put Nawaz on the ECL, one rule for one, another for another, and despite legal imperative, he is still in charge:

    "ISLAMABAD:

    Former interior minister Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan has sought public explanation from the government over its decision to ignore anti-corruption watchdog’s recommendations regarding placing the name of former premier Nawaz Sharif on the Exit Control List (ECL).


    Responding to a query in the National Assembly on Friday, he said during his tenure as interior minister for the first time the ECL policy was reshaped.

    “Prior to my tenure names were placed on the ECL even after a brawl between a couple. Now matters of the ECL are decided by a committee set up in the Ministry of Interior,” he stated on the floor of the house.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1661979/1-decision-not-putting-nawaz-sharif-ecl-taken-elsewhere-nisar/

    2) Financial ruin that has been visible from the moon continuing to take shape:

    "ISLAMABAD:
    In a disclosure that could jolt the country’s financial markets, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has said Pakistan’s net international reserves after excluding its foreign exchange liabilities are negative $724 million.

    In its first Post Programme Monitoring report, the global lender has exposed the shallowness of the current gross official $12.1 billion reserves, which are largely maintained by double booking of reserves and taking Chinese deposits under the currency swap arrangements.



    As of February 14, Pakistan’s Net International Reserves stood at minus $724 million – down from $7.5 billion in September 2016 when the three-year IMF programme had ended, according to the IMF report released on Thursday."

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1661289/1-pakistans-net-reserves-stands-minus-724m/

    3) more of 2) this is a total and utter disaster that no one in the country is emphasising enough"

    "ISLAMABAD:

    The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has assessed Pakistan’s gross external financing needs at a record $27 billion for the next fiscal year, but warned that arranging the financing at favourable rates will now be a challenge due to risks to the country’s debt sustainability.


    In its post-programme monitoring report, the IMF also forecast that due to additional borrowings, Pakistan’s external debt would jump to $103.4 billion by June 2019, up from this June’s projected level of $93.3 billion."

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1661195/2-imf-report-pakistans-external-debt-climb-103b-june-2019/


    and yet people are still supporting a moron like nawaz still, blaming a couple of months of genuine and in retrospect crucial protests for decades of financial mismanagement and plunder.
     
  22. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    story from today - Nehal Hashemi, that foul mouthed piece of lying sh*t, issuing unconditional apologies when strung up in front of the courts, peeing his pants and begging for mercy, and beating his chest and swearing at the judiciary outside the gates:

    "Earlier on Monday, the SC grilled Hashmi for abusing judges after his release from Adiyala Jail. “How dare you abuse the apex court judges? We will not spare you,” said CJP Nisar"

    "The Supreme Court (SC) on Tuesday, accepted former senator and Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) leader Nehal Hashmi’s unconditional apology to the court for passing unwarranted remarks after his release from Adiala jail."

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1670409/1-bar-council-convinces-top-court-drop-charges-nehal-hashmi/

    huh??
     
  23. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    Spot on
     
  24. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

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    Excellent analysis.
     
  25. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    here's some more excellent analysis of the PMLN:



    have never heard this about the head of state of any other country in the world.
     
  26. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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  27. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani The Don

    Jun 10, 2011
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    I know pmln are corruot and even their bigger projects like metros motorways etc are full of corruption but they still have done something.. even if it is 1%.

    Wth has PPP done in Sindh and how are these sindhis still voting them ? The conditions in interior sindh look like from 1800 era.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
     
  28. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    the only thing I recall the PPP have done is embarrass us on the international stage when Zardari was disappearing on official trips, building mansions in London with basement bars and billion bulb bedroom ceilings, and flirting with Sarah Palin.

    His incompetence at least was obvious to such a massive degree that even the predominantly illiterate Pakistani public voted him out.
     
  29. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    The question should be how KPK governance was better than Punjab
     
  30. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    perhaps you should start your own thread on that rather than trying to derail this one.
     
  31. Del
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    Del Cornered Tiger

    Dec 21, 2016
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    Open a thread and I can provide some details.

    Perhaps, we should open a thread about every province to monitor progress and work done/underway for the people of that province.
     
  32. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    Ok sir. Created my own thread.
     
  33. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

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  34. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    given they are so desperate that they would be borrowing at unprecedented rates from countries which will seek influence, essentially selling their sovereignty, why would they allow the PMLN and PPP politicians who have raped the country to bring back all of their money for free, rather than prosecuting and recovering it in total with penalties, which is what every other civilised state does?

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1680311/1-govt-bar-public-office-holders-availing-tax-amnesty-scheme/

    The PMLN in yet another deception is proposing disallowing politicians in office since 2000 no access to the scheme. but that doesn't disallow their children from participating. deception, lies, thieving - the hall marks of these two "stable" governments.

    this is what unchecked corruption in stable governments gives you - bankruptcy.
     
  35. Omar
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    Omar Cricistan Moderator

    Jan 27, 2010
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    Pakistan's debt has grown massively over the last 5 years and it was even weaker from the past PPP government as well.

    Pakistan has been destabilized for years and it's going to take years and years to get it back out of all the debts of the previous governments.
     
  36. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    A country where only 0.7 Million our of 20 Million pay taxes how will country generate funds for development. Debt is bound to accumulate unless we improve the tax collection
     
  37. Passionate Pakistani
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    Passionate Pakistani The Don

    Jun 10, 2011
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    Paying tax is directly proportional to the trust in government. When you dont have any trust in your govt and they are bigger theives than everyone, then you wont bother paying tax either. Leader is nothing but a reflection of society.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
     
  38. iho
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    iho Smooth Operator

    Aug 7, 2010
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    This is the narrative that politicians want us to believe however in reality even leaders like Musharraf who was honest and clean person with no corruption, could not improve our tax collection. He even went after the retailers and small business in Karachi and they fought back. Once Hilary Clinton said, if Pakistanis don't pay taxes, US will not provide the aid. I don't expect Pakistanis to start paying taxes voluntarily no matter who is in the power.
     
  39. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    nobody pays taxes voluntarily, its the responsibilty of a government to build tax collecting institutions. unfortunately that wont happen if the main targets of those institutions will be the senior politicians in government which is what has been happening.

    thats why corrupt leads to bankruptcy.
     
  40. godzilla
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    godzilla Talented

    May 12, 2016
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    wow it just gets worse and worse....

     

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