Saying RIP at the death of a non-muslim

Discussion in 'The Pavilion' started by Passionate Pakistani, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. Offline

    Passionate Pakistani

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    I know this is bit controversial issue but still i would like to clear my mind regarding this issue.

    i have read at many places that its one of the biggest fitna.. while there are some scholars who are ok with it.

    Can some of you guys @ASLI-PATHAN @issacking @zeenix throw some light on this issue.

    quotes and references from Hadith and Quraan will be much appreciated.

    P.S. to all non-muslim posters, i have no intention to hurt anyone feelings but its just i want to clear my mind regarding this issue.
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    Shahid Afridi rulez

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    It's called respect! You're not saying something like 'inna lillah hi wa inna ilaihi raji'oon' because that's not allowed, but saying R.I.P is no harm [as far as I know]. Are we meant to be saying R.I.H to non-muslims at their death, now?

    -----

    And, why only the three posters you have mentioned?! You may agree with their stance on such issues thus you are asking them, but some [including me] do not agree, so their words will have no effect [to me at least, and I already know that this thread was targeted at me and NO 1 AFRIDI FAN].
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    ASLI-PATHAN

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    Saying RIP to a Non Muslim is not allowed for a Muslim due to below ayyah of Quran:

    It is not for the Prophet and those who have believed to ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even if they were relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of Hellfire. Quran 9 : 13



    But you can console a Non Muslim friend in time of the death of his relative when he/she is in grief. You can ask them to be patient and strong and that this was the will of Allah. Not saying RIP does not in any sense mean that you should rejoice at the death of a Non Muslim.
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    Satyagraha

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    So one burns in hell for not accepting Islam?
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    imnt targeting anyone.. all i wanted was to clear my mind regarding this issue so stop being so insecure, and i did ask for references from Quraan and Hadith. I didnt ask only for personal views.

    and i tagged three posters because mostly they are the one talking about islamic issues, others can also contribute as this is a public forum and this isnt a private thread or pm either. :)

    Refere to asli-pathan post. Thanks
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    Shahid Afridi rulez

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    I would just like to make it clear that by saying R.I.P to someone, it is not the same as asking for one's forgiveness. How does the meaning of RIP translate into asking for ones forgivesness, I fail to understand. It is now used as a way of comforting the person, not as in what it meant 1000 years ago. Then again, the prophet [SAW] has said that "Actions are upon intentions", so it depends on the persons niyyah.
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    fair enough.

    though i will be more interested in posts with quotes from Quraan or references from Hadith.

    i want to clear my mind regarding this issue properly.
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    Mercenary

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    You should read what you copy and paste before commenting on it :p

    The verse you quoted quite clearly refers to Polytheists and not all non-Muslims which is what you inferred it to mean. This means that People of the Book and Sabians (whoever they are) are exempt from this verse. This is backed up by the following verses...


    The above verses quite clearly say that any monotheists who do good works and believe in God and the Last Day will have no fear nor shall they grieve. If God has not closed the door on them then how can we?

    So your statement about all non-Muslims was completely incorrect, even by the very verse you quoted. So @NO 1 AFRIDI FAN and @Shahid Afridi rulez did nothing wrong in saying that Tom Maynard should RIP.

    Now we move on to Polytheists, can we say RIP to them?


    In the verse above God extends this to Magians and Polytheists as well by saying that God will judge them on Judgement Day. So in that case there's no issue with saying Rest in Peace since it's not 'May God Forgive You' or 'May you attain Heaven'

    It's just 'rest in peace' and that doesnt contradict any of the verses above.
  9. Offline

    Passionate Pakistani

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    Thanks for clearnce @Mercenary

    i was double minded about this issue as i had read mixed views about this issue.. still i would like to see some more views about this issue...
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    NO 1 AFRIDI FAN

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    I said RIP to Tom for a reason. I wouldn't have said it was condemned in Islam. But I know it is not wrong to say RIP to a non muslim, he was also a Christian which makes him Ahl al-Kitab thus you can say it.

    Also, as @Shahid Afridi rulez rightly pointed out it's not as if by saying RIP you are asking for their forgiveness.

    So next time @Passionate Pakistani do read up on the facts properly before trying to tell others what is right and what is not.
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    Mercenary

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    Most people just quote the first verse and falsely apply it to all Muslims when it doesn't refer to all Muslims, I think that's where @ASLI-PATHAN may have got it wrong. I'm guessing he lifted the quote out of an article off Google somewhere and that article didnt highlight the reference to Polytheists.

    Also the other verses are rarely brought up in these topics/articles simply because the Quran doesnt contradict itself and you have to look at all 4 verses and see how they fit together.

    This whole dont say RIP nonsense was started by the fundo Wahabi movements in places like the UK who also say dont watch TV, dont watch sports, dont do anything but worship.

    That in itself is against a Hadith of the Prophet where he tells off some Sahabah for trying to pray all night long, etc.
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    @Mercenary

    how about this ayah

    Chapter 2
    Ayah 161

    Verily, those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, it is they on whom is the curse of ALLAH and the angels and of mankind, combined.

    now according to this ayah they (disbelievers) have the curse of everyone, can we still pray or wish for them to rest in peace??

    i guess anyone who refuse to accept ALLAH and Muhammad SAW as his last prophet is a disbeliever??
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    whats the issue with you two? pls read the op before replying like this.

    i asked in OP whether it is right or wrong.. i didnt mention you or your friend... i thought you dont have any comprehension problems but i think i was wrong.
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    NO 1 AFRIDI FAN

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    Nah, I was referring to this:

    I wasn't talking about in this thread. But obviously, me and SAR is what triggered you to think about this issue and thus resulting in this thread.
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    yeah so i said be careful that means that one should know about it properly... i had mixed views regarding this issue and thats why i started this thread. i wanted to clear my mind, i havent even attacked anyone.. dont know why you two are so insecure.

    obviously this thought came to my mind but where did i said in this thread that it is wrong or right. iam just asking other views.


    do you have any problem with this thread?
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    Mercenary

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    This doesnt contradict any of the other verses quoted above. Disbelieving in the One God and Judgement Day is what brings the curse, this is made clear in the other verses. This is referring to those for whom there is no reward.

    Besides we dont know if anyone dies a believer or a disbeliever only God knows that.
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    not only disbelieving in God and Judgement day but also on Prophet PBUH. Faith isnt completed without accepting him as your last Prophet. Islam is the final and complete religion, now anyone denying or refusing to accept Islam is Kafir,disbeliever,mushrik and so on.


    yeah we dont know if anyone dies a believer or disbeliever, hence we should offer namaz janaza of everyone as well??
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    Mercenary

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    Well the Quran promises rewards for those who dont accept the Prophet, I posted 3 verses saying that above. God only rewards belief + good deeds, not shirk.

    Perhaps those who accept the Prophet will be rewarded with more in the afterlife, who knows?

    But the Quran clearly says People of the Book (ie those who didnt accept the Prophet because if they did they would be Muslims) will receive their reward in the next life.

    You're trying to superimpose your own version over what the Quran says and you seem to keep looking for a way out even after being shown verses that do answer your question quite comprehensively.
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    Prince Pathan

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    i agree with saf

    i dont see anything wrong with saying it

    because well ultimately you hope that the dead are at peace


    but im not going to lie i often do actually wonder if people are judging me when i say r.i.p
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    cricfreak

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    great thread !
  21. Offline

    Passionate Pakistani

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    imnt superimposing my views over Quraan nor im looking for a way out.
    My POV is that Disbeliever means those who doesnt believe in Islam... ok then what does the following ayah mean? Anyone turning back from his religion ( islam) is a disbeliever?

    And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever. S. 2:217

    Some more verses about kuffars and disbelievers

    O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean (al-mushrikoona najasun). So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, ALLAH will enrich you out of HIS bounty, if HE pleases. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, Wise. Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection. And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of ALLAH,’ and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;’ that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved (kafaroo) before them. ALLAH's curse be on them! How they are turned away.They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides ALLAH. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but HE. Holy is HE far above what they associate (yushrikoona) with Him! They seek to extinguish the light of ALLAH with their mouths; but ALLAH refuses but to perfect HIS light, though the disbelievers (al-kafiroona) may resent it. HE it is Who has sent HIS Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that HE may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters (al-mushrikoona) may resent it. S. 9:28-33


    From the above two verses it is clear that mushrikeen,kufar and Disbelievers are those who donot accept islam.


    is this contrdiction to what Quraan said in the verses you posted?

    also if their is severe punishment for people turning thei back on religion (islam) then what about those who dont even accept it?
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    NO 1 AFRIDI FAN

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    @Passionate Pakistani

    By your last sentence you are basically trying to show that if people turn away from Islam they will get punished and thus making us comprehend the punishment of those who don't even accept Islam - right.

    Well this argument can be used to counteract what you have just said too.

    There are many different types of reasons of still being a kafir. One of the main reasons is, because you are unaware of the true meaning of Islam. Thus the person doesn't turn to Islam. However If a person has already been blessed with knowing about the true religion of Islam yet still deny and turn away there is bound to be more punishment. Basically, it all depends on why the person is still a non muslim, which obviously only Allah knows. So the examples you have pulled up here are of no relevance, to be frank.

    Wallahu ta'ala a'lam!
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    ^^ i dont know what you are talking.. merc said that disbeliver are those who doesnt believe on ALLAH and day of judgement wheras according to the ayah i have mentioned, disbeliever are those who have turned their back to islam.

    unaware of the true meaning of Islam, well, one is given ample time to know islam unless he dies as a kid.
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    zeenix

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    IMO saying Inna Lilahe Wa inna illahe rajeon for Non Muslims is OK, what to talk about RIP.
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    zeenix

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    @Passionate Pakistani
    No it isn't
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    Passionate Pakistani

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    yeah this is much better.
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    Waq

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    This thread reminds me why I find many Muslims off putting these days (not Islam)

    When somebody dies then they are resting but in a permanent state. This can be literally or a figure of speech - depending on your beliefs.

    Surely anybody who dies - you would want them to rest peacefully? i.e. wish them to go to heaven? We never truly know somebody's belief - only God does. What is therefore wrong of saying RIP when a young English cricketer dies?

    For this topic even to be debated highlights what is wrong with Muslims of today. Too much access to google and YouTube and selectively using parts of Islam without looking at the overall message.

    Somebody dies - you wish them heaven just for the fact that you try to be a good person. RIP Tom Maynard.
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    zeenix

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    Yes...
  30. Offline

    Passionate Pakistani

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    You can still be a good person by sharing his sorrows or saying that its a great loss...but to wish him heaven is going overboard??

    You can pray for them when they are alive but once they die and then wish them to go to heaven or rest peacefuly just doesnt make any sense .
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    ok then.. thanks for reading it.....
  32. Offline

    Waq

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    I don't see the logic of your post above? Clearly non Muslims can go to heaven as shown in posts earlier by @Mercenary
    Therefore surely we wish everybody who dies, a place in heaven? I don't see how this is overboard - surely it is being a good person?
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  33. Offline

    ASLI-PATHAN

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    Please @Mercenary don't misguide people here. I know very well what I am typing and what I am copying. I copy paste the translation of Quran from the internet and so do you because neither me nor you can translate it in our own words.

    Now you raised a point that Jews and Christians are monotheists. How can they be termed as monotheists when in the Quran they are mentioned as polytheists in the following verse:

    The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allaah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allaah." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allaah destroy them; how are they deluded? They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allaah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.Quran 9 :30-31
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    and what are your views about this ayah

    O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean (al-mushrikoona najasun). So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, ALLAH will enrich you out of HIS bounty, if HE pleases. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, Wise. Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection. And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of ALLAH,’ and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;’ that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved (kafaroo) before them. ALLAH's curse be on them! How they are turned away.They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides ALLAH. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but HE. Holy is HE far above what they associate (yushrikoona) with Him! They seek to extinguish the light of ALLAH with their mouths; but ALLAH refuses but to perfect HIS light, though the disbelievers (al-kafiroona) may resent it. HE it is Who has sent HIS Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that HE may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters (al-mushrikoona) may resent it. S. 9:28-33

    i would like to see ya views about this issue now as this is also a verse from Quraan


    another thing, merc post didnt say anything about heaven.

    and it does look bit overborad by wishing them heaven.
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    Waq

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    @Passionate Pakistani - it would help if you tell me your own interpretation of your post so that I can comment.

    With regards to Merc's post, he speaks about rewards, which I am equating to after death and therefore heaven.
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    Passionate Pakistani

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    i think it is quite clear in the Ayah i have posted

    Jews say that Ezra is son of ALLAH and Christians say that Jesus is son of ALLAH which is a false and is a shirk as well.
    and ALLAH have cursed them as well....

    now reagrding this topic i still have mixed views, some ayah go in favour of it while some against it.

    i hope someone can clarify this issue properly.
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  37. Offline

    ASLI-PATHAN

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    Don't be confused brother it is very simple. See we are not to decide who should go to heaven or hell. This is purely the decision of one and only ALLAH and he knows whatever is in the heart of each and every individual.
    We as humans cannot and should not judge this is not in our power.

    There is no place for a doubtful act in Islam. If you are confused and have any doubts then why should you say RIP on the death of any Non-Muslim? No one can force you and not saying these specific words will not make you a bad person in the eyes of others. I consider it wrong so I never say such. I have no doubts in my mind that it is wrong. So clear your mind regarding this issue it is not such a complex issue imo.
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    isaacking

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    To say what you don't intent or to say say a complete lie merely to please others is an act of hypocrisy.

    Similarly we know that no Non-Muslim will be able to achieve peace in hereafter due to their rejection of Islamic faith,still to say R.I.P for dead Non-Muslim is an act of hypocrisy.
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    Shahid Afridi rulez

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    TBH, you shouldn't care about what people will make out of what you are saying. If your saying R.I.P with a good intention then there is nothing to worry about.

    P.s It's sar. :p
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    Mercenary

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    In the verse you quoted it clearly refers to idolators (Polytheists) and People of the Book as seperate entities in Islam which they are. That verse talks about how everyone should follow Islam but that is the whole point of Islam. The verses I quoted say the righteous people of the book will receive their reward with their Lord which is also true. I'm not sure where the confusion is.

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